Curse

Sentao Nugra · Jan 01, 2007, 08:16 AM // 08:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Serafita Kayin

A 6200 is the same series as the X seris of ATi cards, not the 9xxx. That would be a 5200 you're thinking of. This is a lot different. A6200 will play most every option turned up, so long as it's not giant resolutions...

Yea I just saw that, and if he is getting a monitor with the computer you can guess that it's 1280x1040.

easyg · Jan 01, 2007, 12:05 PM // 12:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

well none of them are great, but i would go with the campaq for sure. AMD processors are so much better quality than Intel, its rediculous.

My friend, have you been living in a cave the last 5 months?

But all kidding aside, I have to admit, it kinda irks me a little when I read some guy saying how DYIing a computer is cheaper than buying from a volume etailer. I mean, that’s just a bunch of BS. There are a lot of hidden cost involved in building a machine, not the least of which is the fact that you may have to RMA parts and will have to dish out the restocking fee and shipping costs.

Even worse, how’s a first-time builder even going to know what he needs to RMA supposing his assembled machine doesn’t POST the first time he powers up? If you buy a Dell and the Dell doesn't work, you call Dell and Dell fixes it for you. If your do-it-yourself machine don’t work, you have to call the manufacturer of each component for technical support….I mean, I pity the poor bastard who has to go thru Asus customer care! Or Abit!! Or - heaven forbid - MSI!! Good luck with that.

But anyway, my main point is that a retail box can offer pretty good bang for the buck. Here’s an example I saw on Tigerdirect today: Systemax™ Venture™ VX2 Intel®Core™2 Duo E6700 / 2GB DDR2 / 2x250GB SATA RAID 0 / DL DVD±RW / DVD-ROM/CD-RW / D975XBX / Flash Reader / Windows® XP Pro / Desktop

Price is $1999.99

Well, just do the math….

-CPU is Intel E6700. Retails for about $509.99 on Newegg
-MB is Intel D975XBX. Not sure what revision, but again these aren’t cheap. Say $200.00 or so.
-Video card is ATI Radeon X1950 XTX 512MB. Seems to me that would cost you about $380 from Newegg, ZipZoom, etc etc.
-OS is Windows XP Pro w/ SP2. OEM version is $139.00 on the Egg
-RAM is unknown brand but 2 x 1GB DDR2 800 (PC6400). Even the cheapest stuff avail is still gonna run about $250. And quality stuff could cost as much as $350 to $450.
-Case is Systemax midtower with “no-name” 500w PSU. Let’s say $75 for an equivalent medium-good mid-tower from Newegg
-2 optical drives and media card reader. Let’s say $60 total for a cheap DVD-ROM drive, DVD-burner and 10-in-1 flash card reader.
-2 x 250GB HDD. I’d guess about 120-$140 for 2 WD/SG/Hitach 7200RMP HHDs
-Input devices – Wireless Logitech keyboard and mouse. Looked it up…$29.99 on the Egg
-assorted other junk – unknown

Note that except for the weak ass power supply, this machine is actually made up of quality parts from Intel, ATI, etc. (for some reason, PSU is where all the computer retailers skimp).

After totaling everything up, you see that at best, building the equivalent machine yourself from Newegg parts would prolly save about $150.00 tops, and prolly less than that, especially if you end up RMAing a bunch of stuff. So much for the idea that building yourself saves massive dough.

Personally, the last three machines I’ve had, I built myself. But that was because I wanted special combinations of stuff Dell, Gateway, et al didn’t offer. I built my last machine because I wanted to be able to run 8800GTXs in SLI. But I was never under the delusion that somehow I’d save a ton of money by building my own stuff. And neither should anyone else be.

Mushroom · Jan 02, 2007, 09:14 PM // 21:14

If my choice was also among the three listed, I would go with the first one. But all have advantages and disadvantages.

The first is probably the most powerfull of the three (with the Sempron comming in second). However, it is probably a Prescot chip, so your CPU upgrades in the future are limited. But on the plus side, it has PCIe.

The second one does give the option to upgrade the CPU to an LGA-775 Pentium 4, but more then likely it will not upgrade to Core 2. It also has PCIe, which is a good advantage.

The third one also has some great CPU upgrade potential. Depending on the flavor of CPU (754-939-AM2), it may even go all the way up to Dual Core 5000+. But the biggest issue is that it does not have a PCIe slot. So forget on ever upgrading the video on it.

If you get any of them though, I strongly suggest having it put into a better case with proper cooling and a good power supply. Those are the weakest links in the "Consumer" model computers today. They save a few bucks by cheating you on cooling and power supply, which greatly reduces the lifespan of the computers. Most seem to die within 2 years.

And "Custom Built" is not as expensive as most people would lead you to believe. We sell custom built computers all the time in the $650-700 range. These are not "cheap units", but use Retail box CPUs (3 year warranty), Asus or MSI motherboards, DVD burners, and 120 gig SATA drives.

If I was to make a suggestion, it would be to buy the first computer, and put it in a better case. Then when you get some spare money, get a better quality video card and maybe some more RAM.

And every year, put $100-200 in upgrades into it. If not this year, $100 next year for Vista. In 2-3 years, a new motherboard and CPU. By doing gradual upgrades, your computer will stay fast and up to date. The mistake most people make is that they wait 3-5 years, then want it upgraded. By that time, everything in it is so old, it is almost worthless for use in a new system. Today we use DDR2 RAM, while 4 years ago we used mostly PC-133. 4 years ago AGP 8x was all the rage, while today we use PCIe 16x. And in the last 2 years SATA has finally made the old IDE hard drives obsolete.

Spike · Jan 03, 2007, 12:03 AM // 00:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

well none of them are great, but i would go with the campaq for sure. AMD processors are so much better quality than Intel, its rediculous. My friend has a compaq and has never had any problems with it.

have you been liveing in a cave for the last few months?. Ever hear of the Intel core 2 duo? It beats ALL of the current amds by a LONG way. As for those 4 systems I would'nt get any of them. Ask around and see if any of your friends can build a pc for you. As building it your self IS SO MUCH cheaper.

Yes if you get one from dell they will fix it for you if it goes wrong BUT it will take then the best part of 2 months and the most important thing IS, you WILL NOT be able to upgrade your dell with out voiding the warrently. Unless you have dell do it and they will only use dell parts which will cost you two or three times as much as "normal" parts.

If you DIY it you can upgrade at ANY TIME you want.

dansamy · Jan 03, 2007, 05:08 AM // 05:08

I'm not gonna knock the guy for wanting a pre-built. It's a lot less headache. If you need to buy a mojar brand from a big box store, save up a little more and look at PCs in the $800-1200 range. If you've got to keep it under $500, try looking at some of the refurbs on Tiger Direct. Be forewarned: it's a pain in the arse to get any of the rebates they promise, so don't count on 'em.

easyg · Jan 03, 2007, 05:59 AM // 05:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spike

Yes if you get one from dell they will fix it for you if it goes wrong BUT it will take then the best part of 2 months and the most important thing IS, you WILL NOT be able to upgrade your dell with out voiding the warrently. Unless you have dell do it and they will only use dell parts which will cost you two or three times as much as "normal" parts.

I have nothing but good things to report about Dell customer service, at least if you are the owner of an XPS system. If you own a Dimension or something, you're screwed, since it'll take an hour on the phone just to get thru to a live body. And like Spike says, maybe in a month your machine will be up and running again. But the XPS customer care is first rate, at least since this fall when Dell contracted HSB for tech support. Yes, XPS tech support is US-based again (Arizona I think), not that company in India that was so horrible.

Incidentally, if you put "normal" parts in your Dell, you don't void the warranty. I asked a tech guy precisely this question. What happens is, if you have to call tech support any time after modifying your system, they will ask you to put the original parts back in the system. And if your system still doesn't work, then they can help you.

Mushroom · Jan 03, 2007, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spike

have you been liveing in a cave for the last few months?. Ever hear of the Intel core 2 duo? It beats ALL of the current amds by a LONG way.

This is almost an "Apples Vs. Oranges" arguement. Because with that higher performance comes a substantially higher cost. And the question is really about a computer that can play GW, not an "uber performance" system.

For Guild Wars, you do not need a super-fast dual core system. And when you compare on a price Vs. performance scale, AMD does come out on top.

If somebody wants a super gaming system (or super anything system) and money is not an issue, I myself tend to suggest Intel. But for those of us who live in the "Cheap Seats" of life, I tend to suggest AMD, because of the value.

And here is an FYI: other then the major makers who buy in the thousands, the Sempron is pretty much extinct. In fact, the lowest speed AMD that our suppliers have is the Athlon 3200 (they sold out of Semprons in early December). And at less then half the cost of the lowest Core 2, it is a really sweet deal.

One word of caution though: if you consider buying a Sempron (or Athlon) processor, make sure it is an AM2. Do not get one that is Socket 754 or 939. Because when it comes time to upgrade, you will find out that the older sockets are "no longer available". I give the same suggestion to those that get a Pentium 4. If it is not an LGA-775, avoid it.

Spike · Jan 03, 2007, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Hmm I just checked the site i get my pc stuff form (komplett.co.uk) Cheapest AM2 cpu is AMD Athlon 64 X2 3800+ 2.0GHz Socket AM2 1MB, BOXED w/fan, 65W at £85

cheapest Core 2 duo is Intel Core 2 Duo E6300 1.86GHz Socket LGA775, 2MB, BOXED w/fan at £125

Thats £40 different and the core 2 duo is at least twice as good if not better. SO please tell me how £85 is less than half £125. Aslo the price vs performance is favour of the Intel chip by a LONG way. So a core 2 duo is NOT as expenisve as you seem to think.

easyg · Jan 03, 2007, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Hmm, I thought long and hard before making the switch to Core 2 Duo...it meant getting a new moboard, new memory, new everything. In the end, I decided to go for it.

The E6400 costs about $220.00 on Newegg, last time I checked. E6300 is about $180 or so, but let's stick with the E6400 cause it seems to be the CPU of choice for budget gaming systems right now.

There's an article in Tom's Hardware that discusses what an incredible value the E6400 is. Please check it out before making up your mind about what processor to buy: http://www.tomshardware.com/2006/10/10/cheap_thrills/

In short, TH got the E6400 clocked to 3.1GHz on its STOCK cooler. Think about what that means. It means, that without spending any extra money on water or phase change cooling, you can spend $220 for a CPU that will equal or slightly better the performance of a stock X6800 that costs about $750 more.

As far as AMD is concerned, I mean good grief their pricing model is insane. Newegg has the Athlon 64 FX-62 Windsor 2.8GHz listed at $677.99. Even if it could cost half as much, it would still be a rip off.

E6400 + Intel P965 chipset = $360-$400 for the CPU and the main board. Top performance, insane oc potential, and garranteed support for at least a couple years till Intel redesigns their core again. I don't see how AMD can compete with that.

Dahl · Jan 03, 2007, 11:00 PM // 23:00

Although some of them have decent specs, all of them have some sort of fatal spec that makes it a piece of crap. When buying a pc, look for the following:

2 ghz - 3 ghz. Doesn't matter in terms of guild wars too too much, but the 1.8 is too low.

512 or 1gb RAM

Try to get at least 256 video RAM (its the video card quality)

Note that these are not top of the line by any means, but they will run guild wars perfectly smoothly with top graphics and maybe even a little anti aliasing to boot. These are specs to look for when shopping for price, not value.

I think pretty much every system out there is a dual core these days so don't worry about that. Also, try to make sure you have extra RAM expansion slots. If you have extras, you can buy more later to upgrade. They add to eachother, they don't replace eachother. Say you have 4 slots. They usually come with 2x 512's, which takes up 2 slots, then you could go buy let's say 2 more 1 gb RAM sticks. 512+512+1gb+1gb = 3gb RAM. Though that is much more than you'll need for just about anything these days. 1gb will suffice, I run gw on 512 just fine but I get occasional lag and I can't have my graphics totally pumped.

Titan Chrae · Jan 03, 2007, 11:54 PM // 23:54

Athough my budget was a little higher I purchased a Dell from the online outlet store and I'm happy with service and the same warrantee you could get for new. I had a problem with the fan being loud but they sent a service guy out to fix it in two days after I called.

I found this system. They have new stuff all the time. You can filter by criteria to find a system that fits your needs in your budget. This one doesn't come with a Monitor but I assume you can use your old one.

OptiPlex 745
(System Identifier: FLRVPAVC)

OptiPlex 745 Desktop: Intel Celeron Processor 346 (3.06GHz, 256K, 533MHz FSB)
Genuine Windows XP Home

System Price : $369.00

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Operating System
Genuine Windows XP Home
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Memory
1 GB DDR2 NON-ECC SDRAM 533MHz (2 DIMMs)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Floppy Drive
1.44 MB Floppy Disk Drive
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hard Disk Drive
80 GB EIDE SATA Hard Drive (7200 RPM)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scratch & Dent
Scratch & Dent
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hardware Upgrade
Internal Speaker
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Base
OptiPlex 745 Desktop: Intel Celeron Processor 346 (3.06GHz, 256K, 533MHz FSB)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Media Bay
48X CD RW/DVD Combo Drive
Software
DVD Software
Operating System CD
AOL ISP Software
Support Software
AOL 9.0 ISP Software
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Misc
Shipping Material
System Documentation
Processor Label
Hardware is Microsoft Vista Capable
No Resource CD
AOL Software Documentation
RoHS Compliant Lead Free Chassis and Motherboard
Keyboard
USB 2 Button Mouse

cruciaxor · Jan 04, 2007, 09:20 PM // 21:20

dude, just try to build your own. You might spend a bit more money, but its worth it. Then you will get all the features that you want!

Coloneh · Jan 04, 2007, 09:50 PM // 21:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dahl

2 ghz - 3 ghz. Doesn't matter in terms of guild wars too too much, but the 1.8 is too low.

I believe you are talking about the athalon? mine is 1.8 and it runs faster than almost any intel. Intel stresses having the higher gigahertz, AMD stresses the actual speed of the processor. they run about the same speed, but AMDs can handle more over clocking and are less likely to be shipped to you broken.

cruciaxor · Jan 04, 2007, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

I believe you are talking about the athalon? mine is 1.8 and it runs faster than almost any intel. Intel stresses having the higher gigahertz, AMD stresses the actual speed of the processor. they run about the same speed, but AMDs can handle more over clocking and are less likely to be shipped to you broken.

Intel has better performance. I found the speed to better, too. And my intel processor shipped just fine. But AMD is the way to go if you don't want to take risks of a broken processor. Even though I use intel, you should get an AMD probably, because the game performance ends up being beter.

Coloneh · Jan 04, 2007, 10:45 PM // 22:45

games do run better on AMD. if i wanted an office computer, i would buy a cheap dell with an intel, but for a gaming rig AMD is the way to go. I guess my main warning is that if you do build your own, go with an AMD since Intels are broken pretty often (I got 2 before i switched to AMD), and their customer service is pretty bad so it will take a day or 2 of talking on the phone before you can send it back.

cruciaxor · Jan 04, 2007, 11:07 PM // 23:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

games do run better on AMD. if i wanted an office computer, i would buy a cheap dell with an intel, but for a gaming rig AMD is the way to go. I guess my main warning is that if you do build your own, go with an AMD since Intels are broken pretty often (I got 2 before i switched to AMD), and their customer service is pretty bad so it will take a day or 2 of talking on the phone before you can send it back.

coloneh is right. if you don't know what you are doing when you build a computer, then amd is the way to go. if you are a gamer, amd is the way to go. but if you plan on the cpu to be a community computer/working/homework/etc. then you should buy an intel processor and be very careful. Intel can be a very powerful processor, if you are the kind of person who wants it to be. But for your sake, if you buy or build a computer, then use amd. you won't go wrong!

*GASP* WHAT AM I SAYING! AN INTEL USER SUPPORTING AMD??? lol j/k. I got intel because the motherboard i bought was an intel p4 motherboard, and it was the cheapest high end motherboard, so i just went with intel. say coloneh, did you build your own computer???

Tommy · Jan 05, 2007, 05:25 AM // 05:25

DIYing is more expensive than buying a pc from major pc manufa. I got my sister a Dell5150 with Intel Pentium4 3.06Ghz 1GB DDR2 Ram. 80GB HD,
DVD-RW and 19'LCD for 429 dollars.. it comes with Windows XP Home too.. beat that price with your DIY... FYI, the machine with 6100 video card is better for GW imao. go for that one.

easyg · Jan 05, 2007, 06:05 AM // 06:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

I believe you are talking about the athalon? mine is 1.8 and it runs faster than almost any intel. Intel stresses having the higher gigahertz, AMD stresses the actual speed of the processor. they run about the same speed, but AMDs can handle more over clocking and are less likely to be shipped to you broken.

Your 1.8 GHz Athlon runs faster than a Core 2 Duo E6400 running at 3.1 GHz? Gimme a break.

Your Athlon 64 can handle the stress of a 56% overclock? Again, gimme a break.

Looking at the high-end of the spectrum, THG did a head-to-head between a superclocked AMD Athlon 64 FX-62 and a Intel Core 2 Due X6800. Check out the results here: http://www.tomshardware.com/2006/08/02/thg_tuning_test/

Up and down the product line Core 2 kills the Athlon 64. Not just my opinion, but the opinion of Anandtech, MaximumPC, etc etc etc. So please do a little research before you voice these ridiculous opinions.

The only place where AMD comes out ahead is in the cheapo sub $180 category. Yeah, AMD shines here, cause the only stuff Intel offers in these prices ranges sucks.

Thankfully, I do make a little money, and so I don't have to scrape the bottom of the barrel for my CPUs.

And before it gets better for AMD, it's gonna get worse, cause when Bearlake launches this spring, Intel will launch a quartet of new Core 2 Duo processors: E6550, E6750, E6800, and E6850. Rumor has it, they will sport a 1333 MT/s FSB, and all the processors will have the full 4 MB of L2 cache enabled, including the entry-level E6550.

Personally, I have no doubt that AMD will be competitive again, but it's gonna be a long long while before their redesigned core sees the light of day. And in the meantime, Core 2 Duo will reign supreme for at least the better part of this year.

dansamy · Jan 05, 2007, 07:19 AM // 07:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by easyg

The only place where AMD comes out ahead is in the cheapo sub $180 category. Yeah, AMD shines here, cause the only stuff Intel offers in these prices ranges sucks.

Thankfully, I do make a little money, and so I don't have to scrape the bottom of the barrel for my CPUs.

Some of us do have budgets to consider. Try not to be so condescending.

dansamy · Jan 05, 2007, 07:29 AM // 07:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tommy

DIYing is more expensive than buying a pc from major pc manufa. I got my sister a Dell5150 with Intel Pentium4 3.06Ghz 1GB DDR2 Ram. 80GB HD,
DVD-RW and 19'LCD for 429 dollars.. it comes with Windows XP Home too.. beat that price with your DIY... FYI, the machine with 6100 video card is better for GW imao. go for that one.

For a basic box, with no intent/desire to upgrade, yes. If you want a truly high-end gaming machine, which is well out of the price range of PCs the OP listed, then DIY is much less expensive than custom ordering a machine.